Sustain

Guests Timmy Barnett | Devin Ulibarri Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain!  Richard is in Portland at FOSSY, the Free and Open Source Software Yearly conference that is held by the Software Freedom Conservancy. In this podcast episode, Richard interviews Devin Ulibarri and Timmy Barnett about their work with Music Blocks and Sugar Labs. Music Blocks is a visual programming language that combines music and computation, allowing users to explore musical and computational concepts. Sugar Labs is a non-profit organization focused on providing free software learning activities for kids and teachers. Devin explains that Music Blocks started as a collaboration with Walter Bender, co-founder of Sugar Labs, to create a tool that empowers kids to learn and create music using free software. The software aims to offer a creative approach to music education, helping students explore concepts and compose music from the very beginning. Download this episode now to hear more! [00:01:28] Devin Ulibarri introduces Music Blocks. It's a visual programming language for music developed in collaboration with Sugar Labs, a non-profit organization promoting free software for education. Music Blocks combines music and computation, allowing users to explore both musical and computational concepts. [00:02:26] Devin explains how it got started. He was interested in free software in education and attended a talk by Walter Bender, co-founder of Sugar Labs. They collaborated to create Music Blocks. [00:03:43] There are more than 150 contributors to the Music Blocks project, and Japan has shown interest in using it in their national elementary school curriculum for teaching programming. [00:04:21] Devin explains how you can use different instruments or even record a sample of a sound to create an instrument. [00:05:14] Devin talks about being a musician and started a job at the Free Software Foundation last year, having played a significant role in incorporating Sugar Labs. [00:06:20] Sugar Labs is used across the world and it’s impossible to really know with the nature of the software. However, there isn’t nearly enough people operating it in the U.S. [00:08:23] Music Blocks is seen as an instrument, and the team focuses on reaching a critical mass of users to create a culture that promotes active learning and creativity. [00:09:16] The main challenge is educating the public about Music Blocks and providing teachers with the necessary tools and materials to integrate it into classrooms effectively. Also. there needs to be a culture with it. [00:10:15] There’s Music Blocks for musicians and music educators. It offers a creative approach to music composition and exploration of musical concepts from the very beginning, which can be beneficial for music education. [00:11:15] They use an active approach to technology rather than passive. They hire students from music colleges to teach the kids via Music Blocks. [00:13:39] Music Blocks allows students to explore musical concepts and start composing music from the very beginning, promoting a more active and engaging learning experience. [00:14:35] Find out where you can follow Devin and Timmy on the internet. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?lang=en) Software Freedom Conservancy (https://sfconservancy.org/) Open OSS (https://openoss.sourceforge.net/) Devin Ulibarri’s Website (https://www.devinulibarri.com/) Timmy Barnett’s Website (https://timmybarnett.com/) Music Blocks (https://musicblocks.net/) Music Blocks Mastodon (https://mastodon.education/@musicblocks) Sugar Labs (https://www.sugarlabs.org/) Free Software Foundation (https://www.fsf.org/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Devin Ulibarri and Timmy Barnet.

Guests Matthew Wild | Stephen Paul Weber Panelists Richard Littauer Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! Richard is in Portland at FOSSY, the Free and Open Source Software Yearly conference that is held by the Software Freedom Conservancy. Today, he engages with XMPP protocol experts Matthew Wild and Stephen Paul. Matthew shares about his project, Snikket, which aims to make XMPP more accessible for everyday communication among friends and family groups. Stephen introduces JMP, a project designed to facilitate connections using an XMPP based stack, allowing smoother transitions from other communication platforms. They explore why XMPP stands out against competitors, and you’ll get a glimpse into JMP’s transparent funding model, Snikket’s user base, and the open source projects it’s built upon. Our guests also discuss their future visions, highlighting the importance of open communication and the potential for growth in the XMPP ecosystem. Hit download to hear more! [00:00:48] Matthew talks about his work with Snikket, and Stephen talks about the project JMP, which helps people connect with their friends and family using XMPP based stack and transition from other communication platforms. [00:01:57] Matthew explains why XMPP is a better protocol for Snikket compared to Signal; the main reason being that XMPP is federated, giving users more choice. [00:02:42] Matthew tells us how XMPP is different from Matrix and Delta Chat. [00:04:06] Stephen agrees with Matthew, stating that JMP also supports multiple protocols and wishes to promote open communication, and acknowledges concerns around Matrix’s scalability and funding models. [00:04:47] Stephen describes JMP’s straightforward funding model with customers paying a monthly fee for their services. Matthew reveals that Snicket’s user base is hard to determine due to self-hosting and different statistics. [00:06:21] Matthew explains that Snicket is built on a variety of XMPP-based open-source projects, including Prosody, Conversations on Android, and Siskin on iOS. Stephen mentions that JMP is a five-member team. [00:07:37] Stephen explains JMP’s business model, stating they function on a traditional business model where customer directly pay for the services they receive, and they operate as a cooperative. [00:08:59] JMP has about 3,300 paying customers and Stephen explains they don’t have a dedicated marketing team, but they use blogs. [00:10:03] Stephen explains that he and the other primary founder of JMP do not currently draw income from the project. [00:10:54] Richard asks Matthew and Stephen about their long-term vision for their projects. Matthew explains his goal is open communication and Stephen shares his goal is create sustainable funding for the XMPP ecosystem. [00:13:22] Why are Matthew and Stephen focused on XMPP? Matthew tells us he always had a passion for communication and Stephen emphasizes the importance of communication, stating it’s often overlooked and consumes by proprietary silos, which can be harmful. [00:14:47] Find out where you can follow Matthew and Stephen and learn more about JMP and Snikket. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?lang=en) Software Freedom Conservancy (https://sfconservancy.org/) Open OSS (https://openoss.sourceforge.net/) Matthew Wild Website (https://matthewwild.co.uk/) Stephen Paul Weber Website (https://singpolyma.net/) Snikket (https://snikket.org/) JMP (https://jmp.chat/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Matthew Wild and Stephen Paul Weber.

Guest Erik Benner Panelists Richard Littauer | Eriol Fox Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! We are in Portland at FOSSY, the Free and Open Source Software Yearly conference that is held by the Software Freedom Conservancy. Richard and Eriol are joined by Erik Benner, who works for Mythics, a large public sector IT company specializing in cloud migration and traditional legacy applications. Today, they discuss the challenges of transitioning open source software to government departments and the need for technical and cultural support in sustaining open source in the public sector. Erik emphasizes the importance of verifying true open source software and shares insights on Mythics role in providing services and support for government organizations. They also dive into the usability of open source applications, Erik’s background in Unix and Linux, and the potential benefits and considerations of government involvement in open source. Hit download to hear more! [00:00:57] Erik tells us about Mythics. [00:01:43] Eriol asks Erik about the challenges of transitioning open source software to government departments and their familiarity with it. He also mentions the challenge of companies misrepresenting proprietary software as open source. [00:04:43] Erik suggests that governments should be more diligent in verifying if technology marketed as open source is truly open source and not modified. [00:05:56] Richard is curious about Mythics and Erik clarifies that Mythics helps government organizations procure and support commercial distributions like Oracle, providing services and knowledge base for technical support and education. [00:08:16] We learn about Mythics responsibility for fixing dependencies in the tech stack as Erik emphasizes the need for education and enablement in the public sector where training may be limited. He gives an example of cities adopting open source and highlights Mythics role in providing assistance. [00:09:44] Eriol expresses interest in the usability and user design of open source software, suggesting it could be more user-friendly, and Erik agrees and mentions that open source applications in the UI space have room for improvement in terms of user experience. [00:10:56] Erik talks about his early experience with Unix systems and his introduction to Linux, he mentions his involvement in kernel hacks, bug finding, and bug fixes. Then, he explains his career transition, how he became more involved with technologies and open source and discusses the importance of using the right tools for the right job. [00:13:04] Richard asks Erik about his opinion on government subsidizing or paying for open source to improve cybersecurity and make it a part of shared infrastructure. Erik mentions the MITRE Corporation and other government-funded initiatives that contribute to open source, highlighting existing grants and funding mechanisms. He compares government involvement in open source to examples like the post office and Amtrak, noting that a mix of government funding and other approaches can be effective. [00:15:09] Find out where you can follow Erik online. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?lang=en) Software Freedom Conservancy (https://sfconservancy.org/) Open OSS (https://openoss.sourceforge.net/) Erik Benner Twitter (https://twitter.com/Erik_Benner) Erik Benner LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/erikbenner) Tales from the Datacenter v2.0 (Erik’s Blog) (https://talesfromthedatacenter.com/) Mythics (https://mythics.com/) MITRE Corporation (https://www.mitre.org/) CVE (https://cve.mitre.org/) Security Technical Implementation Guides (STIGs) (https://public.cyber.mil/stigs/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Erik Benner.

Guest Sam Whited Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! Richard is in Portland, OR at FOSSY, the Free and Open Source Software Yearly conference that is held by the Software Freedom Conservancy. Today, our guest is Sam Whited, a bicycle mechanic with a deep involvement in open source software development. His contributions include work with the XMPP Standards Foundation, the Internet Engineering Task Force, and the creation of Mellium, an XMPP library in Go. The conversation delves into the sustainability challenges faced by Mellium and similar projects with Sam advocating for support from larger companies and well-funded open source initiatives. Sam, a strong supporter of open source co-op consultancies, also shares his personal journey from tech to bicycle mechanic, underscoring the struggle of maintaining open source projects while managing living expenses. Go ahead and download this episode now to hear more! [00:00:38] Sam tells us about himself, working as a bicycle mechanic while contributing to open source software in his free time. He’s worked with the XMPP Standards Foundation, the Internet Engineering Task Force, and maintains an XMPP library called Mellium. [00:01:45] He explains XMPP stands for Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol and is an open standard communication protocol. He believes in it because of its recognized standards body, resilience, and the continuing work to keep it open, free, and sustainable. [00:02:38] XMPP sits at several levels in the communication stack. It’s used in various applications like Snikket, Cisco’s mobile video conferencing, Grindr, Zoom, and Jitsi. [00:04:11] Mellium is explained as an implementation of XMPP in Go. [00:05:13] Richard asks about the sustainability of Mellium. Sam acknowledges the challenges of attracting maintainers and funding for the project, and he explains his goal is to operate Mellium as a cooperative. [00:08:00] The conversation turns to funding for protocol implementation and Sam suggests that companies and well-funded open source projects should give back to the smaller projects they utilize. He mentions that Mellium sets aside a portion of their donations for upstream projects that helped him. [00:10:38] Sam explains “The Seven Cooperative Principles” from the International Cooperative Alliance. [00:11:30] Sam explains why he decided to work as a bike mechanic instead of pursuing work related to his expertise in using Golang. [00:13:43] Find out where you can find Sam on the internet. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS mastodon (https://openoss.sourceforge.net/) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?lang=en) Software Freedom Conservancy (https://sfconservancy.org/) Open OSS (https://openoss.sourceforge.net/) Sam Whited-social.coop (https://social.coop/@sam) Sam Whited Blog (https://blog.samwhited.com/) Mellium-Go XMPP library (https://xmpp.org/software/mellium/) XMPP Standards Foundation (XSF) (https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation/) Go (https://go.dev/) Snikket (https://snikket.org/) Jitsi (https://jitsi.org/) Grindr (https://www.grindr.com/) The Seven Cooperative Principles (International Cooperative Alliance) (https://www.ica.coop/en/cooperatives/cooperative-identity) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Sam Whited.

Guest Karen M. Sandler Panelists Richard Littauer | Justin Dorfman Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, hosts Richard and Justin welcome Karen Sandler, Executive Director of the Software Freedom Conservancy (SFC). Karen shares her journey from engineer to lawyer, and how her personal health condition led her to the world of open source. She discusses her role at SFC, the importance of Copyleft licenses, and the organization's diversity initiative, Outreachy. Karen also shares her personal experience with her defibrillator pacemaker, emphasizing the need for more control over technology. The conversation then turns to SFC's role as a fiscal sponsor, its support for alternatives to proprietary software, and its work in enforcing Copyleft licenses. The episode concludes with a discussion about SFC's ongoing lawsuit with Vizio over Copyleft license obligations. Hit download to hear much more! [00:01:46] Karen discusses her background and how she got involved in open source and her role at the Software Freedom Conservancy (SFC). [00:04:44] Karen shares her personal experience with her defibrillator pacemaker, emphasizing the need for more control over technology. [00:09:34] Richard wants to know about how Software Freedom Conservancy came about, and if she helped found it. [00:10:58] Karen goes onto explain SFC's role as a fiscal sponsor, its support for alternatives to proprietary software, and its work in enforcing Copyleft licenses. [00:12:52] Justin is curious to find out the status of the Vizio lawsuit, so the group discusses SFC's ongoing lawsuit with Vizio over Copyleft license obligations. [00:15:08] Karen explains the difference between Copyleft and Copyright, emphasizing the importance of Copyleft. [00:17:30] Why is this lawsuit so important? Karen explains how companies like Vizio are not sharing source code under the terms of the Copyleft license. [00:26:54] Richard shares the news he read about how Japan says, “AI Model Training Doesn’t Violate Copyright,” and Karen shares her thoughts and how it could be playing a role with things like Microsoft Co-pilot and its effect on Open Source Code. [00:31:55] We find out what software freedom means to Karen and the importance of holding companies accountable for their responsibilities under Copyleft licenses. Quotes [00:03:43] “Our technology may not be made for us, and what are we going to do when it's not.” [00:12:29] “It was never our purpose to just be a fiscal sponsor. It was our purpose to support software freedom.” [00:13:32] “The really deep thinking about licensing and whether or not how it works out to have non Copyleft licensing and Copyleft Licensing, how that impacts the longevity of a community and the ability to maintain the software as open source.” [00:17:10] “There's so much promise in devices where you can get access to the software because you can create alternative builds, you can do really cool stuff with them.” [00:19:42] “It's really the downstream recipients who are the ones who are hurt by the lack of compliance.” [00:24:03] “We’re in it for the long haul. Going to do this slog so that we can come out at the other end and do our best and see if we can get a good result for software freedom.” [00:25:49] “Almost no business models rely on proprietary source code anymore. Very few are like royalty based.” [00:29:54] “I don't care about Copyleft necessarily. It's a strategy to get us to that goal of software freedom.” Spotlight [00:31:55] Justin’s spotlight is py-cord, which allows you to create Discord bots. [00:35:49] Richard spotlights Kevin Kelly, and the Tim Ferriss Show podcast episode he was on. [00:36:20] Karen shares a personal spotlight, the late Marina Zhurakhinskaya. Marina helped found Outreachy and passed away just over a year ago. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Richard Littauer Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@richlitt) Justin Dorfman Twitter (https://twitter.com/jdorfman?lang=en) Software Freedom Conservancy (https://sfconservancy.org/) Outreachy (https://www.outreachy.org/) The GNOME Foundation (https://foundation.gnome.org/) Karen Sandler Twitter (https://twitter.com/o0karen0o?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Karen Sandler FLOSS Social (https://social.joshtriplett.org/@karen@floss.social) Karen Sandler LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/karensandler/) Vizio Lawsuit Article (https://www.thestack.technology/vizio-sued-open-source-gpl-copyleft/) FOSSY 2023 (https://2023.fossy.us/) py-cord (https://pypi.org/project/py-cord/) Tim Ferriss Show – Kevin Kelly “Excellent Advice for Living” Episode (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/669-kevin-kelly-excellent-advice-for-living/id863897795?i=1000610782498) Tim Ferris Show Blog – Kevin Kelly (https://tim.blog/2023/04/26/kevin-kelly-excellent-advice-for-living/) Marina Zhurakhinskaya (https://www.outreachy.org/blog/2022-06-14/remembering-and-honoring-marina-zhurakhinskaya-founder-of-outreachy/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Karen Sandler.

Guest Otto Richter Panelists Richard Littauer | Abby Cabunoc Mayes Show Notes Welcome back to another episode of Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. In this episode, Richard and Abby are joined by guest Otto Richter. Otto is the executive director of Codeberg, a nonprofit organization dedicated to providing a free and open space for developers to host their software projects. It’s like GitHub or GitLab but powered by free software as an alternative to proprietary software platforms. Today, we learn about the financial model and the inner workings of Codeberg, its commitment to user sovereignty, and its unique approach to open source hosting. Also, we discuss the challenges and triumphs of running a nonprofit in the tech space, the importance of community involvement, and the future of Codeberg. As always, it’s a fascinating discussion, so go hit the download button and hear it for yourself! [00:01:49] Otto explains what Codeberg is - a nonprofit hosting software projectories, created as an alternative to proprietary software platforms and he explains the difference between Codeberg and GitLab. [00:03:37] Otto explains the structure of Codeberg as a registered nonprofit association in Germany. [00:04:52] Discussion about the financial structure of Codeberg, including donations and membership fees. [00:05:41] Abby asks Otto about the membership structure and fees of Codeberg, and he explains that it is an opportunity for larger companies, but it is currently more around individuals. [00:07:02] The discussion turns to how the voting process is within the association, what they are voting on, and how things get implemented. Otto explains the role of the executive board in relation to the membership as well. [00:09:39] Richard is curious about international membership of Codeberg, and Otto explains the challenges, even though 50% of the members are from outside of Germany. [00:11:19] Richard and Otto discuss how about the value of sovereignty in Codeberg's platform and in Germany in general. [00:13:29] Otto talks to us about the about the design process of Codeberg and how it currently works. [00:14:43] Otto shares the current number of users and projects on Codeberg as well as user protections on the platform and managing user expectations around platform availability. [00:19:39] Abby asks Otto about the audience of Codeberg and how they manage reliability. He cites an example for us and explains how they communicate downtime to users. [00:23:41] Otto tells us how Codeberg’s contributors is really a mixed bag. [00:24:50] Richard wants to know why they don’t have a federated system or a decentralized system. [00:30:10] Otto goes into the importance of building up “human infrastructure,” projects coordination, and why they need to spread awareness. [00:32:38] Abby really wants to know about ways of paying contributors for their work, and Otto discusses why it’s so simple in Germany to do so. [00:34:25] Find out where you can follow Codeberg on the web. Quotes [00:30:10] “I think one important part is that you need to pay humans for their awesome work.” [00:30:24] “You need to decide whom to pay. What is the most important thing?” Spotlight [00:35:25] Abby’s spotlight is the Godot Gaming Engine. [00:35:42] Richard’s spotlight is a book of poems by Martín Espada called, “Floaters.” [00:35:58] Otto’s spotlight is the Linux Show Player. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Richard Littauer Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@richlitt) Abby Cabunoc Mayes Twitter (https://twitter.com/abbycabs?lang=en) Codeberg Website (https://codeberg.org/) Codeberg Mastodon (https://social.anoxinon.de/@Codeberg) Codeberg Twitter (https://twitter.com/codeberg_org) Codeberg Matrix (https://matrix.to/#/) Codeberg Blog (https://blog.codeberg.org/) Codeberg Blog – The Hardest Scaling Issue (https://blog.codeberg.org/the-hardest-scaling-issue.html) ceph (https://ceph.com/en/) Duane O’Brien – Critical Human Infrastructure (https://www.duaneobrien.com/critical-human-infrastructure/) UC Santa Cruz - CROSS (https://cross.ucsc.edu/) GODOT (https://godotengine.org/) “Floaters” by Martín Espada (https://www.nationalbook.org/books/floaters/) Linux Show Player (https://www.linux-show-player.org/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Otto Richter.

Guests Ruth Cheesley | Josh Goldberg Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes Note: Due to an issue with Gmail sending the edited podcast to spam (thanks, gmail), this is going out a bit late! Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. This is a special podcast and one of several in this series for GitHub’s Maintainer Month. We’re interviewing maintainers to ask them about their experience of open source and their experience of living as maintainers. Our first guest is Ruth Cheesley, a maintainer and community lead for Mautic, an open source marketing automation platform. Richard and Ruth dive into open source governance, community engagement, and organizing virtual conferences. Ruth shares how she reinvigorated the Mautic community, highlighting the importance of transparency and empowering community leaders, and she unveils her project focusing on governance and fundraising to ensure Mautic’s sustainability. Our next guest is Josh Goldberg, a full-time independent open source developer who’s contributed significantly to TypeScript. They discuss Josh’s transition from TSLint to TypeScript-ESLint, his efforts to boost developer community efficiency, and the importance of fair compensation for maintainers. Also, there’s a conversation on the governance proposal of TypeScript-ESLint and the challenges of fair funding. Hit download to hear more! [00:01:06] Ruth tells us about Mautic and the growing community. Also, the core team/leadership team is made up of team leads for each functional area and Ruth as project lead. [00:03:32] Ruth thinks of herself as a maintainer because she’s instrumental in the project’s direction and ongoing development. [00:04:21] We hear about a challenging time for Ruth when Mautic was first acquired by Acquia in 2019, she was brought in as community manger to navigate this change and was successful in regaining trust an keeping the project moving forward. [00:07:41] Ruth emphasizes the importance of transparency in building trust, and she encourages maintainers to empower their community members by providing opportunities for leadership and ownership. [00:08:57] What’s been fun for Ruth? Organizing Mautic’s first-ever conference which was an inclusive, multi-lingual event with over 300 attendees. [00:12:11] Ruth discusses her excitement about the independent project they’re working on, focusing on governance and fundraising. She expressed her vision for Mautic to be among the top options when people consider marketing automation tools. [00:13:49] We find out Ruth’s long-term career aspirations in open source and community management, and how enjoys the challenge of new tasks and strives to balance her routine administrative duties with more fulfilling tasks that bring her joy. [00:17:01] She advises community managers to keep working in public, even it feels like an echo chamber initially, as people are watching and learning how they can contribute to the project. She suggested that this approach prevents burnout and invites others to generously contribute their time and support to the project. [00:18:09] Find out where you can learn more about Mautic and Ruth on the web. [00:20:22] Josh Goldberg joins us and fills us in on his journey into open source. He discusses the transition from the TSLint project, a linter for TypeScript, to TypeScript-ESLint, a set of extensions on top of ESLint that allows linting of TypeScript code, improving the efficiency and reducing duplication between the ESLint and TSLint communities. [00:22:13] His work is primarily funded through the Open Collective platform and some individual sponsorship on GitHub, and ESLint also sponsors the TypeScript-ESLint project. [00:23:06] We learn about the co-maintainers that work on the team. He also tells us they are working on a governance proposal, involving a system that ranks contributions by points, aiming to encourage maintainers and contributors to keep contributing. [00:24:39] Josh mentions his role as an open source maintainer, which has turned out to be mostly DevRel. [00:25:42] We hear about sustainable funding, and one of the challenges Josh experiences is the necessity to ask for funding, but he sees it as a necessary part of maintaining an open source project that lacks corporate backing. [00:27:10] There’s a discussion on sustainable funding and Josh explains how they have different definitions based on their life situations. [00:28:54] Josh tells us the work is primarily funded through the Open Collective platform and some individual sponsorship on GitHub. He also talks about the governance proposal, involving a system that ranks contributions by points, [00:31:51] Josh mentions his role as an open source maintainer, which he initially thought would be half DevRel and half coding, has turned out to be DevRel, and he enjoys interacting with users and networking but misses core coding work. [00:33:03] One of the challenges Josh experiences is the necessity to ask for funding. [00:33:56] Richard suggests the possibility of expanding the TypeScript ESLint team to include toles focused on fundraising and community building, and Josh loves this idea. [00:35:31] Find out where you can follow Josh on the web. Quotes Ruth: [00:04:04] “Maintainers are conductors of an open source project orchestra.” Josh: [00:31:57] “When I came into this, I thought it would half DevRel, half coding, but it’s not. It’s majority DevRel and I like that.” Spotlight Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Ruth Cheesley Twitter (https://twitter.com/RCheesley) Ruth Cheesley Website (https://www.ruthcheesley.co.uk/) Mautic (https://www.mautic.org/) Mautic Leadership Team (https://www.mautic.org/mautic-leadership-team) Mautic Contribution (https://www.mautic.org/tag/contribution) Sustain Podcast- 2 episodes featuring guest Ruth Cheesley (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/cheesley) Josh Goldberg Website (https://www.joshuakgoldberg.com/#contact) Josh Goldberg Twitter (https://twitter.com/joshuakgoldberg) TypeScript-ESLint Mastodon (https://fosstodon.org/@tseslint) Open Collective-typescript-eslint (https://opencollective.com/typescript-eslint) Learning TypeScript by Josh Goldberg (https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/learning-typescript/9781098110321/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Josh Goldberg and Ruth Cheesley.

Guest Karthik Ram Panelists Richard Littauer | Abby Cabunoc Mayes Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. In this episode, Richard and Abby are joined by guest Karthik Ram, a research scientist at UC Berkeley’s Institute for Data Science and Berkeley Initiative for Global Change Biology, as well as co-founder and director of the rOpenSci Project, and lead at URSSI. Karthik’s journey from field ecologist to data scientist has propelled him into roles that advocate for sustainable scientific software and open science. He currently manages projects, fundraises, and mentors while also overseeing initiatives aimed at developing best practices in software development, advocating for supporting policy, building user and developer communities. He emphasizes the significance of reproducibility and sustainability in research software and offers an empowering approach to maintaining academic software. Hit download to hear much more! [00:02:00] Karthik explains what he does as a senior data scientist, and he tells us that he views himself as an “engineering manager” rather than an individual contributor. [00:03:01] His transition from a field ecologist to a data scientist was triggered by handling large amounts of data and developing software to work with it. [00:06:21] The conversation turns to the JOSS, the Journal of Open Source Science, and Karthik shares the origin story for the software review process. [00:09:03] Karthik dives into the UC Berkeley’s Science Institute, he tells us how it started, and what his role was there. [00:11:11] Karthik’s involved with the URSSI, where they aim to collect and disseminate best practices in software development, advocate for supporting policy at a national level, and grow user and develop communities around their projects. [00:12:55] One of the projects coming up in the fall for URSSI is they’re going to run a school for research software engineering. [00:15:16] Karthik and Kyle assembled a course focusing on the best practices for developing sustainable research software by drawing on topics from past workshops and classes they’ve conducted. [00:17:12] We hear about the commonalities between scientific software sustainability versus normal open source software sustainability, and Karthik explains that scientific software sustainability is unique because it caters to niche groups, making it expensive to build and maintain. [00:20:20] Karthik tells us about a project he’s working on with Patrice Lopez and James Howison, to identify what tools researchers use in various domains, how their usage evolves over time, and which clusters of tools drive research in certain areas. [00:23:34] As part of this project, Karthik and his team are using a tool called, GROBID, to process structured documents to XML, extract entities, and analyze the usage of software mentioned in scientific papers. [00:28:23] Karthik highlights the difficulties researchers face in keeping with best practices for code hosting and archival copies and discusses the misconceptions about GitHub being a permanent archive and the need for a safer, more reliable repository like Zenodo. [00:31:31] Richard brings up the issue of measuring the impact of code repositories and whether a similar system to academic journal impact factors could arise. [00:33:02] Karthik details an approach for maintaining academic software. [00:38:02] Find out where you can learn more about Karthik and his work on the web. Quotes [00:07:43] “They would bring their puppy and ask us to adopt it.” [00:15:45] “Even today, we do not have a good appreciation for research software and the role that it plays in driving research on all the things that we care about.” [00:16:21] “Another pet peeve that I have is that people think money is the solution to everything.” [00:16:38] “If we teach more projects about best practices, it’s very likely that software that integrates those best practices will actually continue to exist.” [00:17:51] “The challenge with research software is there’s a lot of software that sits on the long tail.” [00:28:39] “I think the challenge is that we don’t really need to invent anything new.” [00:36:14] “Part of the work we want people to do is invest community early on.” Spotlight [00:38:47] Abby’s spotlight is Governing Open by Shauna Gordon-McKeon. [00:39:15] Richard’s spotlight is Bertram Ludäscher and William Michener. [00:39:43] Karthik’s spotlight is Patrice Lopez. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Richard Littauer Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@richlitt) Abby Cabunoc Mayes Twitter (https://twitter.com/abbycabs?lang=en) Karthik Ram Website (https://ram.berkeley.edu/) Karthik Ram Twitter (https://twitter.com/_inundata?lang=en) Karthik Ram GitHub (https://github.com/karthik) Karthik Ram LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/karthik-ram-93334954) rOpenSci (https://ropensci.org/) The Journal of Open Source Software (https://joss.theoj.org/) Arfon Smith-Chatops-Driven Publishing (https://www.arfon.org/) DJ Patil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DJ_Patil) Berkeley Institute for Data Science (https://bids.berkeley.edu/) URSSI (US Research Software Sustainability Institute) (https://urssi.us/) Software carpentry (https://software-carpentry.org/) Report from the URSSI Winter School pilot (https://urssi.us/blog/2020/01/29/report-from-the-urssi-winter-school-pilot/) Kyle E. Niemeyer, Ph.D. (https://niemeyer-research-group.github.io/) Science-miner (https://science-miner.com/) GROBID (https://github.com/kermitt2/grobid) James Howison-Associate Professor (https://www.ischool.utexas.edu/people/people-details?PersonID=175) Issuing a persistent identifier for your repository with Zenodo-GitHub Docs (https://docs.github.com/en/repositories/archiving-a-github-repository/referencing-and-citing-content#issuing-a-persistent-identifier-for-your-repository-with-zenodo) Governance of Open Source Software by Shauna Gordon-McKeon (https://governingopen.com/) Bertram Ludäscher (https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=nYx9xasAAAAJ&hl=en) William Michener (https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=TJ5xlKsAAAAJ&hl=en) Patrice Lopez (https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=xDfUqfcAAAAJ&hl=en) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Karthik Ram.

Guests Yan Minagawa | Christian Paul Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! On this episode, Richard is at FOSS Backstage 2023 in Berlin, where he has two guests joining him, Yan Minagawa and Christian Paul, from the Matrix Project. Today, they talk about what the Matrix Project is. The project has 80 million users and around 10,000 home servers. We also learn that Christian works on developing bridges for the Matrix project, and Yan is part of the team and works as a Solution Architect, specifically in the public sector in Germany. Also, Yan and Christian are involved in organizing meetups and podcasts about the Matrix. Download this episode now to find out more! Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?lang=en) FOSS Backstage 2023 (https://foss-backstage.de/) Yan Minagawa LinkedIn (https://de.linkedin.com/in/yncyrydybyl) Yan Minagawa Email (mailto:yan@minagawa.de) Christian Paul Website (https://chrpaul.de/about/index.html) Christian Paul Mastodon (https://mastodontech.de/@jaller94) Matrix (https://matrix.org/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Christian Paul and Yan Minagawa.

Guest Daniel Stenberg Panelists Richard Littauer | Leslie Hawthorne Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. On this episode, Richard and Leslie are super excited to have as their guest, Daniel Stenberg, Lead Developer of the cURL project. Today, Daniel shares his journey of how he got involved with cURL, its development over the years, the community behind it, and funding the development. Our conversation also touches on the upcoming release of cURL, the future of cURL, Daniel’s desire to grow the project, the benefits of people to collaborate with and provide support, and the role of cURL in the broader landscape of internet protocols and digital infrastructure. Press download to hear more! [00:01:24] Daniel shares the story of how he became involved with the cURL project. [00:03:55] We hear about the community behind cURL and the number of maintainers involved. He mentions having over 1,100 commit authors in the current repository. [00:05:29] The discussion shifts to funding cURL’s development. He tells us for the first twenty one years he had it as a spare time project while having a separate job. [00:06:28] He explains the challenge monetizing a free software project but emphasizes the value he provides to customers in terms of support and expertise. [00:08:40] Leslie raises the topic of Daniel’s positive and generous attitude despite giving away free software and not always receiving equal support in return. He explains as long as he has enough customers to sustain his work, he remains calm and relaxed. [00:11:46] Daniel discusses the development of his mindset and how he acquired a positive outlook over the past 25 years. He attributes his confidence to proven success, test cases that validate code functionality, and feedback form the large install base of cURL. [00:12:45] Richard asks Daniel about his plans for the future of cURL, and Daniel expresses a desire to expand the team and highlights the benefits of having additional people to collaborate with and provide support. [00:13:56] Leslie takes the opportunity to promote wolfSSL, the company Daniel collaborates with to support cURLS’s growth and provide services to more users, and he explains why he’s working with wolfSSL. [00:17:02] Richard raises the topic funding individual maintainers with the broader open source ecosystem, and Daniel acknowledges that his support contract model might not work for all projects, as it requires a certain project size, importance, and ecosystem. [00:19:04] Security issues, particularly zero-day exploit is brought up, and Daniel emphasizes the significance of security and mentions that maintaining cURL involves devoting a considerable amount of time to fixing bugs, addressing support questions, and handling security concerns. [00:20:32] We hear how cURL fits into the wider landscape of internet protocols and digital infrastructure. Daniel talks about the importance of maintaining backward compatibility in cURL, and how he sees cURL as a tool that enables users to transfer data over the internet effectively. [00:22:53] We hear about Uncurled, which is a book by Daniel. [00:24:32] Daniel tells us what many companies would rather not say, such as companies that choose not to disclose their support or donations to cURL. They prefer to remain anonymous and keep their contributions private. [00:28:02] He acknowledges that extracting significant value solely from donations can be challenging and offering support contracts provides a way to generate more revenue and provide additional value to companies. [00:29:19] What’s hard for Daniel? He attributes his optimistic and positive mindset to his personality and outlook on life, but he also mentions facing struggles. [00:34:24] Find out where you can follow Daniel on the web. Quotes [00:07:35] “My biggest way in is when my customers run into a bug. So, I have this weird incentive to not do it too good.” [00:10:32] “When you’ve been around for a long time and you know if things go well, I can be around for a long time further as well.” [00:21:24] “We haven’t done a breaking change in 16 years.” [00:30:09] “The hard part is the humans, the community, interacting with others, all the cultures, languages, and people.” Spotlight [00:35:03] Leslie’s spotlight is The Swedish Internet Foundation. [00:35:47] Richard’s spotlight is WC and Cat. [00:36:10] Daniel’s spotlight is Valgrind. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Leslie Hawthorne Twitter (https://twitter.com/lhawthorn) Daniel Stenberg Website (https://daniel.haxx.se/) Daniel Stenberg Twitter (https://twitter.com/bagder?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Daniel Stenberg Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@bagder) cURL (https://curl.se/) wolfSSL (https://www.wolfssl.com/) Uncurled (https://un.curl.dev/) Everything curl (https://everything.curl.dev/) The Swedish Internet Foundation (https://internetstiftelsen.se/en/) wc (Unix) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wc_(Unix)) Valgrind (https://valgrind.org/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Daniel Stenberg.