The Unspeakable Podcast

In the latest installment of her unofficial series about death and dying, Meghan talks with writer and palliative care physician Dr. Sunita Puri. Sunita is the author of That Good Night, Life and Medicine in the Eleventh Hour and has written about end-of-life issues in The New York Times, The Atlantic, Slate, and elsewhere. In this conversation, Sunita discusses the ways that medical advancements can cloud the vision of doctors and patients alike when it comes to being realistic –and even humane –about how we die. She describes how terminally ill patients can get treated differently–and often receive different information–depending on a variety of factors, including their age. Sunita also discusses her forthcoming New Yorker article about the complexities and misconceptions around CPR, a practice that turns out to be not nearly as effective as many people think. CPR’s origins also contain some fascinating trivia. For instance, did you know that the expression “blowing smoke up your ass” is said to come from an 18th-century life-saving procedure involving bellows and tobacco smoke?   For paying Substack subscribers, Sunita stays overtime to share personal thoughts about the struggle to overcome a hyper-critical inner voice, whether doctors’ inner voices are extra critical, and why it’s so hard to get into medical school even though there seems to be a shortage of doctors. To hear that portion, visit meghandaum.substack.com and join the listener community.    Guest Bio: Dr. Sunita Puri is currently the Program Director of the Hospice and Palliative Medicine fellowship at the University of Massachusetts, where she is also an Associate Professor of Clinical  Medicine. She completed medical school and residency training in internal medicine at the University of California San Francisco followed by a fellowship in Hospice and Palliative Medicine at Stanford. She is the author of That Good Night: Life and Medicine in the Eleventh Hour, a critically acclaimed literary memoir examining her journey to the practice of palliative medicine, and her quest to help patients and families redefine what it means to live and die well in the face of serious illness.

Even if you don’t recognize Tim Kreider’s name, there’s a good chance you’ve read his work. In addition to his two collections of essays, We Learn Nothing and I Wrote This Book Because I Love You, he’s published many short essays in the New York Times opinion section, nearly all of which seem to go viral. The first such essay was The Busy Trap, published more than 10 years ago, wherein he called out Americans’ perpetual condition of being “crazy busy” as “a kind of existential reassurance, a hedge against emptiness; obviously, your life cannot possibly be silly or trivial or meaningless if you are so busy.” He’s also famous for an essay about knowing people are talking about you behind your back, which Meghan has mentioned several times on the podcast and which has been immortalized in a famous meme. In this conversation, Tim shares his thoughts about writing about yourself, writing about other people, teaching writing to college students and (unrelatedly) getting stabbed. He also talks about the process of deciding not to have kids, the difficulty of living with another person as you get older, and a phenomenon he describes as the “soul toupee.”    For paying subscribers, Tim stays overtime and talks about (among other things) being 56-years-old, contemplating mortality, coping with a diminished attention span, and dating his fans – although he insists they’re not really fans once you start dating them.  To hear that portion, become a paying subscriber at https://meghandaum.substack.com/.   Guest Bio Tim Kreider is the author of the essay collections  We Learn Nothing and I Wrote This Book Because I Love You. He has contributed to The New York Times, The New Yorker’s Page-Turner blog, Men’s Journal, The Comics Journal, Film Quarterly, and Fangoria. His cartoon “The Pain–When Will It End?” ran for 12 years in the Baltimore City Paper and other weeklies and is archived at thepaincomics.com. Learn more about him at timkreider.com

Lucinda Rosenfeld is the author of five novels and has published essays and short stories in outlets such as The New Yorker, N+1,  and The New York Times Book Review. She visits The Unspeakable this week to talk about "My Adventures In Deconstruction," her essay in the June 9, 2023 edition of The New Yorker. On the surface, the essay recounts a romantic relationship with a college professor 15 years her senior, back in 1990. But the essay goes much deeper than that, mapping the main story onto the landscape of the deconstructive criticism movement in literature, which posited that an author’s intent doesn’t matter and meaning itself is subjective. In this conversation, Lucinda talks about her the process of writing the essay, the 1990s-era trope of the “bad girl,” and the complexity of power dynamics in relationships between very young women and older men. She and Meghan also wander into a surprising conversation about the role that cigarette smoking played in both of their lives when they were in their twenties. Speaking of which, Lucinda stays overtime for paying subscribers to talk about how she feels about being the age that she is, which happens to be the age that Meghan is!   To hear the bonus content, become a paying subscriber at meghandaum.substack.com.    Guest Bio: Lucinda Rosenfeld is the author of five novels, including What She Saw and, most recently, Class, which was named a Best Book of 2017 by The Philadelphia Inquirer. Her fiction and essays have appeared in N+1, Harper’s, The New Yorker, and The New York Times Book Review.

It’s been exactly a year since the Supreme Court officially overturned Roe v. Wade, thereby eliminating the federal constitutional right to abortion. Last May, shortly after that decision was leaked to the press, bioethicist and legendary abortion rights activist Frances Kissling visited The Unspeakable to talk about the likely implications of this ruling.  Now Frances is back to reflect on what’s transpired since then, whether things are better or worse than many people feared, and what the downstream political effects have been. She talks about organizational efforts on the part of medical providers, activists, and even airplane pilots to get women to places where abortion is legally available and how American women are actually now traveling to Mexico to get safe and legal abortions. Finally, she expands on her comments from last May about how the “abortion on demand” messaging of the pro-choice side contributed to the extreme polarization that has made compromise impossible.    Frances is president of Center for Health, Ethics and Social Policy and was president of Catholics for Choice from 1982 until 2007. She worked as an abortion provider in New York State in the early 1970s, before the passage of Roe, which she talked about in her May 8, 2022 interview on The Unspeakable. She just celebrated her 80th birthday and she stays over time for paying subscribers to talk about what it’s like to be 80, how she was once told she’d die unless someone donated a kidney to her, and, finally, what it’s like to grow older without children or a partner (it has its upsides!) To hear that portion, become a paying subscriber at https://meghandaum.substack.com/.   Guest Bio:   Frances Kissling is currently President of the Center for Health, Ethics and Social Policy in Washington, DC and a professor of philosophy and ethics. She was the president of Catholics for Choice from 1982 to 2007 and has been working in the abortion rights movement since the very early 1970s.

This week, Meghan welcomes evolutionary psychologist Diana Fleischman. Diana’s areas of research include human sexuality, the effect of hormones on behavior, and how “disgust” (the condition of being disgusted) is an evolutionary adaptation, especially for women. In this conversation, Diana talks about why the field of evolutionary psychology is subject to such much bad-faith misapplication but why uncomfortable truths about human mating patterns can nonetheless offer important lessons. She and Meghan explore the relationship between female social hierarchies and cancel culture (for instance, do women control cancel culture?) and then get into a deep discussion about polyamory. What does it really mean? What does it take to make it work? And how come most people just don’t have the emotional discipline to succeed at it.   For the bonus portion for paying subscribers, Diana talks about how her younger self would feel about her current self, why she’s a transhumanist, what’s stopping the world from embracing “clean meat," why she donated her eggs several years ago and wrote letters to her future genetic offspring, and whether she’d pick herself out of a genetic lineup of embryos. If you’re not yet a paying subscriber, go to meghandaum.substack.com to hear this part of the conversation. Guest Bio: Diana Fleischman is an evolutionary psychologist and writer.

This week, The Unspeakable welcomes back William Deresiewicz, who enters the pantheon of three-time guest! Bill was first on the pod in the fall of 2020 talking about his book The Death of the Artist and he came back last year to talk about his book of collected works The End of Solitude. He returns now to discuss some articles he published recently about the state of human creativity and the future of creative output. In an article for Tablet called We’re All Bored Of Culture, Bill explores how and why the arts have seemingly become so lackluster in the last several decades and why audiences appear to be so bored. In an article for Persuasion, Bill writes about artificial intelligence and why he thinks that, despite all the fuss, AI, will never be a substitute for human creativity.    As with all of his visits to The Unspeakable, Bill and Meghan talk about why it might be more difficult than ever to be an artist–-not just in terms of making a living but in terms of “making meaning” (whatever that means). Are artists afraid to take risks for fear of public rebuke and the financial penalties that can result? Or does the machinery of the marketplace disincentivize originality in any form? They also talk about Bill’s early career as a dance critic and Meghan’s recent experience revisiting some films that were important to her when she was younger.    For paying subscribers, Bill stays over time to reflect on the aging process and some of his feelings about friendship, masculinity, regret, and (of course) the new gender movement.    Guest Bio: William Deresiewicz is the author of Excellent Sheep, The Death of the Artist, and The End of Solitude: Selected Essays on Culture and Society. Find him at www.billderesiewicz.com.

Sandra Martin is an award-winning journalist, literary critic, former obituary writer, and the author of A Good Death: Making the Most of Our Final Choices. In that book, which she describes as a social history of the right-to-die movement, Sandra writes about how law, religion, medicine, and social norms can affect people’s bodily autonomy and end-of-life choices in unpredictable and sometimes devastating ways; she also tells some amazing stories. In this conversation, she talks with Meghan about why it’s so difficult to maintain autonomy over our deaths, even if we think we’re making proper arrangements. She explains the difference between physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia, what these practices meant in past centuries versus what they mean today, and why we’re kidding ourselves if we think we’ll keep a stash of heavy drugs on hand for when the time comes. She also talks about Canada’s Medical Assistant In Dying Act, better known as MAID. When it was first passed in 2016, MAID allowed adults to obtain medically-assisted death if they were experiencing terrible suffering and their death was "reasonably foreseeable." Since then, MAID has been expanded in ways that have led to some alarming news coverage, including allegations that it’s being offered to people simply because they were chronically ill and couldn’t afford their own care. While Sandra is not an expert on MAID, her familiarity with right-to-die laws in Canada allows her to put those reports in some context and she offers her perspective on how far is too far and, moreover, how overreach by activists could threaten the whole movement.    In the bonus portion for paying subscribers, Sandra stays overtime to talk about how she feels about being the age that she is and what she wants (or thinks she wants) for her own death.   Guest Bio: Sandra Martin, an award-winning long-form journalist, literary critic, and public policy specialist, is a contributing writer for The Globe and Mail and the author of several books including A Good Death: Making the Most of Our Final Choices, a social history of the right to die movement in Canada and around the world. Winner of the B.C. National Non-Fiction Award and a finalist for both the Dafoe Prize and the Donner Prize in Public Policy, A Good Death was named one of the best books of 2016 by The Globe and Mail, the CBC and several other media outlets. Find her at http://www.sandramartinwrites.com.

Fan favorite Sarah Hepola is back! Sarah has visited The Unspeakable to talk about everything from alcoholism to #MeToo to the changes in the media landscape and literary world. Today she returns to discuss a recent solo episode she recorded for Smoke ‘Em If You Got ‘Em, the podcast she co-hosts with journalist Nancy Rommelmann. In that episode, Sarah reflected on a semester spent teaching literature and writing to college undergraduates in Dallas, Texas, where she lives. Contrary to public assumptions, the students turned out to be relatively open to new ideas and not hell-bent on canceling their teacher. In this conversation, Sarah talks about what literature the students responded most positively to, what assignments they didn’t like (spoiler: Joan Didion) and what they taught her about the ever-changing English language. Sarah and Meghan also talk about writing memoir, the contradictory social codes of dating, and why little girls touch each other’s hair so much—and why Meghan hated it!   Sarah stayed overtime for bonus content that was so good that Meghan decided to release it along with the main episode. In that portion, they talk about motherhood, non-motherhood, aging, dating, sex and pornography and why older women are so popular with young men on dating apps.    Guest Bio:   Sarah Hepola is the co-host, with Nancy Rommelmann, of the podcast Smoke ‘Em If You Got ‘Em. She is the author of the bestselling memoir Blackout and her essays have appeared in the New York Times magazine, the Atlantic, Elle, Bloomberg Businessweek, The Guardian,  Salon, and Texas Monthly. Find her at https://sarahhepola.com.   Relevant links: https://smokeempodcast.substack.com/p/smoking-diary-16-college-kids-today#details   https://smokeempodcast.substack.com/p/on-not-being-a-mother  

Ever since it was introduced in the early 1960s, the birth control pill has been inextricable from the concept of women’s liberation, body autonomy, and just about everyone’s sense of personal freedom and their own life choices. Holly Grigg-Spall, author of Sweetening The Pill: Or How We Got Hooked On Hormonal Birth Control, is in favor of all of those things. But she is also among a growing chorus of activists who believe that the sacrosanct nature of the pill discourages honest conversations about the mental and physical health risks posed by hormonal birth control. Instead of taking it for limited spans of time to prevent pregnancy, many women are often on the pill for the bulk of their reproductive lives, which technically is not the way it was designed to be used. In this conversation, Holly talks about how pharmaceutical companies began marketing birth control pills as “lifestyle drugs” and how artificial disruptions to the reproductive system can cause medical problems to go unnoticed and untreated. She also explains how tech-assisted fertility tracking differs from the old-fashioned “rhythm method” and explores the ways in which “infertility as a default setting for women” has affected mating and dating patterns – and not always for the better.   In the bonus portion for paying subscribers, Holly sticks around and talks about the process of developing Teena, a fertility tracking app for teenagers, and also the documentary The Business of Birth Control, which was inspired by her book (and criticized by Meghan on A Special Place In Hell.)    Guest Bio:  Holly Grigg-Spall is the author of Sweetening The Pill: Or How We Got Hooked On Hormonal Birth Control. Released in 2013, the book will mark its ten-year anniversary later this year and was the inspiration for the 2021 documentary The Business Of Birth Control, Holly recently launched Teena, a free education-forward app supporting body literacy for tweens and teens.

This week on the podcast, returning guest Lionel Shriver talks about her latest book, Abominations: Selected Essays From A Career Of Courting Self-Destruction. A collection of her writings from outlets like The Spectator, The Guardian and The Wall Street Journal, the book also contains some previously unpublished pieces a well as speeches and other public addresses, including a eulogy for her brother. Lionel is perhaps the consummate “thought criminal,” and in this conversation, she talks with Meghan about how she came to assume this mantle (hint: she supported Brexit) and what frustrates her most about culture war discourse. They discuss the Covid lockdown policies, the state of the literary arts, the new gender movement, and the differences between America and the U.K. when it comes to fears about nuanced positions being “weaponized by the other side.” They also consider the “am I canceled or am I just paranoid?” conundrum and wonder how much longer the culture wars can really go on.  Finally, Lionel reflects on how perceptions of our own happiness change over time and how, if she could send a message to her younger self, it would be, “you’re not as miserable as you think.”    In the bonus portion for paying subscribers, Lionel stays overtime to talk about Meghan’s second favorite subject: end-of-life options. Her last novel, Should We Stay Or Should We Go, took a darkly funny look at this subject by considering a dozen parallel universes for a couple who planned to kill themselves when they turned 80.  Lionel and Meghan pick up on where their conversation left off from Lionel’s last visit to the podcast and talk about their feelings about their own deaths and what it means to enter old age without children or close family. Uplifting stuff!    Guest Bio:   Lionel Shriver is a columnist for The Specator and the author, most recently, of Abominations: Selected Essays From A Career Of Courting Self-Destruction. Her  fiction includes The Mandibles, Property, So Much for That, the New York Times bestseller The Post-Birthday World, and the international bestseller We Need to Talk About Kevin. Her journalism has appeared in The Guardian, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Harper's, and the London Times, and she currently writes a regular column for The Spectator in the UK. She lives in London and Brooklyn, NY.